EP 03 (EN): Translation, you know nothing!
In this podcast, Syphaïwong Bay, Areej AbuAli, and Miranda Jessel engage in a conversation about the art of translation. They delve into the experience of being multilingual and explore the essence of a good translation. The discussion touches upon false friends, common mistakes, and the risks associated with poor translation. Through a cultural and marketing lens, the host and her two guests analyze the intricacies of translation. Moreover, they provide valuable advice on how to gain confidence when communicating in a language that is not your mother tongue.
This podcast is brought to you by Euphonie Studio and Assonance.Agency, combining their expertise to deliver insightful content on the subject of translation.
Speakers:
Areej AbuAli - https://www.crawlina.com/
Miranda Jessel - hereismiranda (AT) gmail.com
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Syphaïwong
Hello. Good afternoon. It's the afternoon, maybe not for our audience, but for us it is. So, here is Areej Abu Ali.
SEO consultant and founder of Corina. Hello, Aareej.
Areej
How are you? Thanks for having me.
Syphaïwong
I'm fine, I'm fine, it's very sunny today. And we have Miranda, sorry, Miranda Jessel, who is a freelance translator.
Miranda
Thanks for having me on.
Syphaïwong
Thank you for being here. I'm very glad that you accepted my invitation. So we are talking about translation and translation in a global point of view, because I think it's a very interesting topics. And we are going to begin with what is a multilingual skillset? Is it easy to get? How do you, how, because we are the four of the...for the three of us, sorry, I can't count. The three of us have a multilingual background and that's very interesting. Maybe we could make a bit, a small presentation of this background. Areej, can you begin?
Areej
Yeah, I'm happy to. I mean, I'm my, my native first language is Arabic. I'm Egyptian. But we've, you know, I've learned English since I was very, very young as a second language. And since moving to the UK 10 years ago, English has become like the primary language I use for all things like from a professional standpoint and for my everyday work.
Whereas Arabic is still like, you know, the language that I use, like at home with family and friends. Yeah, that's kind of my background from my end.
Syphaïwong
Thank you, Miranda.
Miranda
Yes, so I was brought up in Belgium and in the UK. I then moved to France when I was still quite young. I went to university in the UK for my degree and then saw the price of a master's degree in the UK and then came back to France to do my postgraduate degree. And I was essentially in England learning economics with a kind of European slant, European studies slant to it. Economics, Lance. So I kind of found myself studying the same things, but in two different languages and with two very interestingly different cultural kind of approaches to it. So that's my background.
Syphaïwong
And in my case, actually, my parents moved to France because of a very bad war in Cambodia. And so I grew up in, let's say, in a Khmer family, but I learned French at school with other kids. With other kids. But it's very interesting because at home, we were talking in Khmer. With my siblings in French and then in French in everyday life. But yes, I have this kind of bilingual background, very typical for immigrant people. And then English is my third, maybe my fourth language actually, because I began to learn German at first. English came very afterward, maybe when I was 13, 13 years or 14 years, in the quatrième, we say in France. So, sorry. You can translate. No, it's interesting. You can translate the level at school, the year at school. It's very different.
So yes, multilingual. But for me, multilingual is a skill for the everyday life. But not just to brag. Not just to brag on a CV or maybe when you are looking for a job. I think it's something very interesting that is happening in our brain when we are able to talk different languages. What do you think about that, Harish?
Areej
Hmm. I think what's actually interesting is when I, the way I got my very first job in the SEO world here in the UK is because I speak Arabic and I, you know, I, I also moved to the UK to do a master's degree and, you know, I had like a, a bachelor degree in engineering from back home and then I specialized in like digital marketing and, and I, I was like, I was super qualified, uh, but I was really, really struggling to get a job just purely because, you know, I'm not.
I'm not someone who is from the UK or just from the UK or so forth. And my, the way I landed my first job in the digital marketing industry was purely because there was an agency that was about to take on a client that needed someone who was native and in Arabic for an Arabic campaign. Um, and even though I worked on that project just for like two or three months, and that was it. And then I kind of shifted track completely. Um, but it was just interesting how it was mine. My first, like my home language.
This was the main reason that I managed to secure a job when I, when I moved across countries.
Miranda
Sure, I can really relate to that actually. Speaking English in France is a huge advantage. I don't want to say that the French people don't have a great level, but it's quite well known that at school the focus is not necessarily on languages. And so at every stage in my life, finding a job, just as Arish said, oh, you speak English. Oh, well, that's interesting. It'll always be that little extra. Same, I wasn't actually going to go into translating originally.
It just kind of happened because people realized that I could talk about a topic in both languages with relative ease, you know. So it was really, really helpful for me. It's what kind of put me. Yeah.
Syphaïwong
LR. Yeah, but for me, it wasn't useful at all to speak Khmer to get a job. It's a quite rare language if you compare to English, of course. But I used to be convinced that my bilingual background was something that helps me to learn another language faster.
And when people ask me, oh, how did you do to speak English so well? Because we've been in the same classrooms. We had the same teachers. Why do you speak English better than me? And why do you speak it well faster than me? And I had these questions a lot. And I was convinced that it was because of, not because of, but thanks to.
My bilingual background. But now it's interesting because I realized that it was not the case. Because for example, my siblings or my cousins, etc., it's not as easy for them as it is easy for me. I was convinced it was just the background, you see.
That, okay, you are exposed to another language. But now I realize this is a skill actually. This is really a skill that can be a strength and not just because you are able to talk in another language, but because you are able to be more open because you can understand what people are saying. And it's just a faster way to learn a lot of stuff.
Miranda
certainly read that being bilingual, whether you became bilingual as a child or later in life, certainly does help, you know, with the brain activity and so on. I'm not an expert on this, but I've certainly read that. I think just being able to see things in two different ways, I mean, is maybe something that is interesting. Being able to see the world in two languages to identify to people from different cultures, but still feel quite comfortable. I think, yeah, it's
Probably an advantage, definitely.
Syphaïwong
Yeah, and it can be a difficulty too, because let's talk about the difficulties to translate to another language. For example, when I was a kid, I was punished at school because I didn't say please for something. I don't remember exactly. I remember exactly what, but I don't want to talk about it. I have a too big PTSD about that, but I was punished because I didn't say please.
And it was... Now I see this as an interesting anecdote, but when I was a child, it was just unfair because I didn't say please and I didn't understand what does please mean. Please, please, what is it? I don't know if you will say that in English, it's a magic word in French. And I didn't understand the concept of a magic word.
because in my family, you are nice or you are not, you are polite or you are not, it's just in how you are moving, how you are smiling or not, etc. And for this, I think maybe I was five years old. I think this was the day I realized that I had not a different brain, but that I had to adapt because of my language, speaking background about my native tongue.
So I wish that you had some, did you have some anecdote like that?
Areej
Yeah, so the one thing that comes to mind is in Arabic, there is a formal and an informal way of saying you. So if I want to say, I want to talk to you, there is a way to say, I want to talk to you. And I would say to you just an informal way as you're my friend, or I would say I want to talk to you. But I would change the word you because I'm speaking to someone who is older, more experienced, like in a more formal, respectful way.
So when I went to, I only realized that I think when I was around 10 years old, because again, we didn't used to talk that way at home. And in my first few years, I went to a school that was, it was like an American school, so we didn't talk too much Arabic there. But then when we moved to Egypt and I went to a school that's more like Egyptian, this is where I started picking up on that. And my first year there, I think I was around nine years old.
And the teachers thought I was being very rude because how could I be speaking to them using the informal words that I used at home instead of like the more formal? And that, yeah, that was like a big learning for me. Like, I couldn't understand how it was just something I lived 10 years not knowing. And it was like a big shift in my own even like native language. So, yeah, that's the story that came to mind when you were sharing yours.
Syphaïwong
I think that's something I think in some of the ways that we can find our way to the right path. I think that's the program that we need to be able to do. How dare you! But politeness, maybe politeness is something very cultural. How to be polite. Miranda, we often talk about this, that you are very much more polite than me.
Areej
Yes.
Syphaïwong
to speak because you are more maybe more passive aggressive than me and because you are so British.
Miranda
Right, so this is something that's really interesting in what you're saying is that we realise here that communication isn't just language, is it? It's not just words, you were talking about attitude, Sipai, and you're talking about a choice of words, you know, grammatically everything's correct, but what are people going to understand? We have a similar thing in French with the tu, the more informal you, and the vous, the more formal you, and as a native British person it's an absolute nightmare.
Who do you tutoies? Who do you vouvoies? So if in doubt, vouvoir, you know, be polite. Sometimes you can come off as very formal and a bit weird. So yeah, we have talked about this a lot in the past. The British, you know, the more polite we are, the more careful you should be, would be maybe a good way.
Syphaïwong
Maybe. But we have this in Khmer. We have to talk to someone depending of their state statues, but the statues about how old they are comparing to your parents. If they are older than... Maybe if this woman is older than my mother, I have to call her Om. And if she is...Younger than my mother, I have to call her Ming. So if you want to flatter someone you don't know, maybe in a shop, maybe she's middle-aged, a middle-aged waitress, etc. and you say, oh, Ming. And then this person will feel very flattered because it's like, oh, mademoiselle in France to say to someone...
Oh, you are very young, you are very pretty, et cetera. But yeah, it's playing with words and it's interesting. And I like that. I think it's a very fun playground, actually. But we had about translation to focus on our topic. We had a job like that with Miranda, who I think it's quite funny about translating the bathroom. The bathroom in French, in English, UK, US.
Miranda
So this is translating from English to English, in fact, that sometimes... Yeah, so this was quite funny. Bathroom, what's a bathroom? Depending on who you talk to, I need to go to the bathroom will not have the same meaning. So how do you work around this kind of thing? Absolutely.
Syphaïwong
English to French, French to English to English to French.
We were doing a keyword research and we had to sell floor plan software or something like that for bathroom. And thanks to Miranda, we didn't publish a landing page about how to plan your bathroom in the US with the same keywords.
Miranda
No. Or differently presented at least. Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. No, but sometimes it can be just very funny, you know, pants in the UK will not mean the same thing as pants in the US. If you're ordering pants online, you need to know where you are, you know. So obviously, America tends to take over a bit, but it's still...
Syphaïwong
Yeah, because it's not the same room.
Areej
It is very interesting. I think I only really realized recently when I was working on an e-commerce website that, um, their internationalization is in US, UK and Australia. And it was, we would start getting, we were like, oh, we really need to have like a localization plan in place because it was, it's not just as simple as, oh, switch the S to a Z. Uh, you know, the O to the OU and so on. And when we started working with content writers who were based.
Syphaïwong
They were... Why? Because one of them is underwear, no? Okay. Trousers, yeah. The hose, in German. Yeah, sorry. My brain is like a milkshake. There are so many words.
Areej
UK one. I think in the UK we say trousers more than... yeah.
In those countries is when we realized like how much of the content actually needs to change. And it was to the extent that we're not even our product names in some cases where, no, no, no, no, the category shouldn't be, that's not the category that they would use there. They would name it something completely differently. So it's just, I think it just shows right, the importance of actually ensuring that you're working with content writers who are like based or like have that cultural background from these countries to really understand that, that language difference.
Syphaïwong
Yes, and if they are not from this country, they have to be aware that they need to do some research. Because of course, it's very difficult to hire people from all around the world for each country. But they have to be aware of that. And if a translator, for me, if a translator doesn't take time to see if he is here, he or her is... Using the proper word it's not doing the right job it's not it's not good at all that's why i work with Miranda
Miranda
You flatter me, you flatter me. Just, it was really interesting what you were saying there, Ariej, I totally agree. I mean, you sometimes have to completely rewrite everything, you know, even if on the face of it, it looks right, you know, just because your target audience might not understand the same thing. And I just wanted to bring in an example, actually, very recently, the French have taken over the word DIY, but they use it in the context, not as I, a Brit, would of. Doing home repairs essentially, but doing crafts activities with your kids. So, you know, I don't know, painting spaghetti and making something nice out of it becomes DIY, or should I say, le DIY, which obviously doesn't really work in English. So it can be the same word. You can see how it comes from the same place, but you do have to be really careful.
Syphaïwong
Yes, we have to be very careful because you can take some risks if you don't translate your content properly. For example, I had an example like that. It was in a newsletter, an emailing marketing campaign of a client and this client wanted to translate by himself because he thought that he would speak English well. So...
And the money, you can't see the video, but yes. And to spend less money, of course. But I remember that, and it was, he wanted, these clients wanted to say, oh, I spent a very nice time with my family, very quality time, nice sea, etc. We were very well dressed.
fun party and the words he used just meant something like we were very, we were completely drunk. It was not the good registre, register, thank you Miranda. It was not, it was a register, register? Register, thank you. It was a register of the...
Miranda
register.
Syphaïwong
maybe the party like student party and with some picture, very fancy picture and it was not the good register and not good for the target, for the audience because it was to sell luxury clothes. So, and this is very risky and I think I wish what you think about what...
What type of risk we take if we don't take time, just take time to do a good translation.
Areej
Yeah, I think it can be really scary, right? Like that's, that can be a massive blow to a company's entire brand. Um, when, you know, they don't take the, they put the time or effort because you can cause offense to like a whole, like a large number of your, um, audience, uh, that way, and it just, it just shows that you don't care, right? Because it's very, it's, those are the, the typical, bad publicity, viral things, unfortunately, that you see all.
being shared on social media where it was like, who was sat in the room? Who agreed this campaign? You know, it's so obvious that they didn't actually have someone from that background or that culture to kind of approve this. So I mean, I'm hoping I can see that like more companies do put the effort now to ensure that, you know, these kind of problems don't end up occurring. But it's one of the things that like you really have to prioritize it in your marketing plan, for sure.
Miranda
Sure, not causing offense, not making people feel like they're not the target audience. This is so important. I was translating something the other month, which was all about Christmas presents. It was a brand who was really focusing on, you know, November and December to sell Christmas presents. But of course, billions of people around the world do not celebrate Christmas. So how do you transform this into something that's really inclusive, that's not going to make people say, oh, you know, this just isn't directed at me?
So yeah, having quite a broad cultural vision is so important. It's really not just language.
Syphaïwong
But we have that with some brand names too, I think there are some very funny cases like, I know a Danish brand which is called Crème Fraiche, which is sour cream, and they are selling clothes, so it's quite funny.
Syphaïwong
Or maybe there is one company, a French startup, who wanted to go in the international market, but their name was It's Your Box. So in the US, it was not very funny, not for food gourmet, as we say. And yeah, quite dangerous.
Quite scary, I wish. You're right. It's very scary. Because when I create a content in French or in English, I'm terrified about saying something wrong, but wrong not to be enough that people could not understand me. And I'm very scared about that.
I think it's about being confident about how to speak, how to speak in our own language, in our native tongue, it is already very difficult. But in another language, it's more difficult. So do you have any advice for people who would like to speak in a foreign language in...
or in everyday life or maybe to become a speaker or maybe just at work, just when in a meeting and to speak in another language, to be able to participate into a meeting and not to be the quiet person, you see.
Miranda
So as someone who taught English to business people or have been teaching for years, obviously there's a sort of scale at the beginning. It's absolutely normal to feel maybe a bit nervous. I always say that it's the communication that's important. You want to be understood, you want to get a message across. It's not about having an amazing style or trying to sound like a native speaker. You've really at the beginning got to just keep it short and simple. It's the KISS method, yeah? You've...
Also got to maybe listen a lot. This might sound obvious, but you don't always have the opportunity to listen to native speakers or listen to people who are confident. That's obviously the best way to maybe feel more confident yourself. It's to learn the tricks that, you know, you can hear from somewhere else. Just be open to feedback, I would say, is so important. Quite a lot of people don't like feedback. They might feel like they're being criticized.
or being told that what they did wasn't any good, but in fact, that's probably the best way to improve.
Areej
Yeah, I think yeah, you're spot on on everything you said. I think also it's just something, sometimes you feel more comfortable. I feel like you and I, we talked about this before where it's like, if someone is a bit nervous about, you know, coming in and like speaking to a large group of people specifically that they don't know, it's just, you know, you can start off and say that, you know, just be vulnerable and just admit it out loud and just be like, this, this is not my first language. So, you know, wish me luck type of thing. And then kick off. I feel like if you, it's almost like, um,
What do they call it? Like breaking the ice, right? Because you're so nervous and you're like, will people guess from my accent or how I'm talking or la la that this isn't my first language? And so you're so busy kind of thinking that in your mind. So just break that ice and just be like, uh, by the way, this is, you know, this is not my first language type of thing. Or like, you can put in a little joke here or there, and then I feel like you're gonna get all that stress out and you can then just carry on and do your thing. Right? Like you've put it out to the world.
I see a lot of people doing it with public speaking sometimes where for them, they feel better saying, this is the first time I ever speak to a large crowd type of thing. And they feel better once they say that and then move on and start presenting. So you do you in terms of what makes you feel more comfortable. I personally like to go down the route of just kind of saying what's on my mind and maybe showing that little bit of vulnerability. Because usually what happens is people are rooting for you and they want you to do well. So then they'll be like...
Whoa, this is amazing. And I've seen a lot of people talk about this before about how impressive. I think we don't give ourselves enough credit. Like it's so impressive. Like this isn't even your first language. It might be your second or your third language and you are doing your full talk, like a full 20 or 30 minute talk around it. That's amazing. And so I guess when you, when you kind of start hearing people rooting for you and saying those things, like it really, really helps with, with your confidence as well.
Syphaïwong
Yeah, that's right. And in my very recent experience to talk on a foreign stage, thanks to Areej at the Women in Tech, SEO, it was in March, yes, it was in March. And it was the first time that I did a real talk in English, fully in English, in front of real people.
Not on the internet or something like that, or maybe in a small room during a meeting to present some KPI, how did you see how we grow or something like that. And what I realized, I realized several things like, for example, people don't care if you have an accent, it's okay. We all have an accent, maybe an accent for the north of France, the south of France, an accent from...
From Wales, an accent from, I don't know, from Cornwall, etc. They don't care because we all have accents. And so it's okay to have an accent. And I have this chance to have the French accents of, so I sound a bit sexy, so it's okay. And the other thing is that, like you said earlier, Harish, if you tell people that it's not
Your native language. If you don't tell them, they will guess. But it's okay, it's fine. But if you tell them, they could help you. Because on the stage, I had this moment when I completely forgot what word I wanted to use. It was like the void in my brain. And I remember that I just kicked the floor with my foot.
And the crowd, the people in front of me, there were about 400 people, women, and I heard this big foundation coming from the room, and I said, oh, foundation, thank you, and it was great, and it was great, and then I realized that, oh, it's fine, it's okay, we are all in the same room,
The same goal and this goal is to understand each other. And if we agree on that, it's okay. It's fine. It's going to be fine. And after that, if I know that, for example, in this podcast, I know that I did some mistakes and I heard myself doing them when I was saying, for example, I'm very bad to choose what... Time to use, etc. I know I'm very bad at that, even in French, even in anything else. But I know I'm bad at that, but it's okay. If people can understand me, it's fine. And now about confidence, now I'm not too shy to do a podcast in English, for example, even if I know that people will only hear my voice and not see my face.
And even if I know I can't kick the floor with my foot because I'm forgetting a word, you see.
Miranda
I'd just like to add, because I find it really fascinating, how a lot of people who, if we're talking about English, which is what I know most about, people who aren't native English speakers often feel very nervous speaking in English on the stage. I would just add from my experience, it's the native speakers on the stage who actually get the worst feedback because they are not thinking about their register. They are not thinking about their vocabulary. And if they are talking to an international audience, which...
Let's face it today is usually the case, quite often they won't be understood. They might be speaking too fast. They might be using expressions, idioms, which nobody knows. Globish is something that I'm very interested in. It is not quite the same as, you know, British English or American English or any other English. It's an international global English and native speakers don't really always get that. So I would just say often if you're stressing out before,
Speaking in public in a language that's not your own, you're probably gonna be clearer, more precise, and maybe better than a native speaker.
Syphaïwong
Actually, maybe we just can say it's a strength to know what you have to work on. Yeah, you see, I know that I'm bad at some kind of words for pronunciation, so I will focus on them and exercise a bit. Just before my talk in March, I was like, that's content, content.
In the subway, content, content, don't say content, say content, content. And, uh, but it was very useful because now I can hear myself saying content just like that. So it's useful and I think you just have to practice, but it's like sport, it's like everything. You just have to, let's do it. Just do it.
Okay, maybe a last word for this very very good podcast.
Firstly, I want to thank you two to be here. It was very interesting and I hope that our audience will agree with me. And I hope that you understood me. Definitely okay. So it's fine. And what about, what can we see you next time? Areej, do you have maybe some...
Miranda
Definitely.
Syphaïwong
uh something to announce maybe like an early bird ticket or something like that
Areej
Ah, yeah, super early birth tickets for Women in Tech SEO Festival are now live. So that's very exciting. Yeah, for the UK edition. Yeah, US is in September, but that's sold out.
Syphaïwong
for the UK edition because you are going to America and that's a huge thing
Ahhhh! But for the recording session maybe. Hmm? Okay. So... Areej is going international!
Syphaïwong
And Miranda, what can we say, what can we hope for you for the next days?
Miranda
Oh, the next few days. Well, being in France, it's actually the weekend right now. I'm doing the point, which is one of those words you can't translate. So I've taken a long weekend. So if you're talking in the very immediate future, I'm going to go into the garden and get some sunshine because it's a lovely day. And well, in the sort of more short to medium term, yeah, continue learning lots about different cultures so that I can...translate appropriately, keep on teaching my students how to be confident when they speak in public and just make the world communicate better.
Syphaïwong
Oh wow, that was great. So if you want to maybe to work with Miranda or Areej, we will find their email and everything to contact them in the description of the podcast. And so I will say thank you and see you.
